And that softness is even more pronounced when you put them side by side with the modern versions of those lenses. Do you have any? The used method is to place the xenon reference fabric on the sample holder for continuous exposure for 202h. The price is always a hot topic, but this really isn't targeting enthusiasts. And with the possibility of mixing both, choosing when to spend more and when not to. You see camera brands as that entity always trying to suck more money from their users by adding barriers to cheaper options. With chemical fiber like silk fabric and cotton product standards, lightfastness is also taken as an important evaluation index, and some product standards even take lightfastness as an evaluation index. no, you've made multiple posts attempting to bash 3rd-party lenses on sony, with ridiculous claims that ef-mount was somehow a viable alternative to 3rd-party. The deeper the dyeing depth and the higher the post-setting temperature, the more obvious the above phenomenon is. You spend your entire time doing just thatPerhaps you could spend a bit of time checking out Sonys extensive discount package that they have launched in the UK. @pantunesThere are always specific use cases where you need specific equipment. According to the standard for the size of the sample, it is required that the sample can contain all the colors of the sample. For sanded or raised fabrics, the fluff on the surface of the fabric and the surface of the friction cloth are at a certain included angle, which is not parallel, so that the friction resistance of the friction head during reciprocating motion increases, making this kind of fabric resistant to drying. A 24-105 f4-7.1 STM is not an alternative to a 28-75 2.8 with fast AF. Not surprising as Sony, Nikon and Tamron is to very high degree owned by the same group of investors. I think that they will eventually bring out f 1.4 primes like they have in EF. Use a spade or large trowel to level out the bedding material, which should have the top 15-25mm loosened to allow the flag to be bedded down - this is usually acheived by 'rippling' the bedding surface, creating small troughs and peaks with the blade of a trowel. The sony user is being given the choice to opt for more expensive lenses if they wish to use the top cameras at full potencial, or buy other more affordable but still high quality lenses from other manufacturers. For example, I suspect that with Nikon and Tamron, Nikon has it so that Tamron cannot make any Z version of any of Nikon's premium pro lenses (24-70 2.8, 70-200 2.8, etc) but they can make lenses that Nikon either is not planning to make at all, or anytime soon. Love, love that lens, but it doesnt like the fastest action.. if this 135 does, then thats a real consideration.. My point about the Sony focus breathing correction, which is in the software of the A7IV and A7RV, not the lenses, is that Sony is making their camera bodies with features that only their native lenses can use. Why then are you so angsty about their lineup or what lenses are available for them, unless you secretly, desperatly, actually want a Canon camera? I don't blame Sony or any company for doing this. 7,950,000, 16 f2.8 STM - Rp. Where do you get the 3000 from it was launched at exactly the same price as Canon 70-200ii it certainly did not cost anywhere near 3000, The Canon 70-200 ii was Launched at $2500 by the way in 2010 that is, put 6 years of inflation on top in 2016 money that is $2837. And only real competition here is Sony and Nikon, so if you setup your system on any of them (all producing same IQ in general) then difference can be 1000s of USD/EUR/WHAtwever. Q4. Tamron's recent offerings, the Z f1.8 primes or Sonys latest gen Zooms, all very, very good. @KZ7 - "Nothing wrong with using old lenses". And if Canon has that much more market power, then that just means they have created a more successful business with more demand. They are not my first choice, that is my opinion, it doesn't mean someone else wont find them useful or a better choice for their particular purposes. For example, the dyes Color Fastness can only reach 2~3, or even 1~2, no matter how good the auxiliary and dyeing process are, a product with 4~5 Color Fastness cannot be dyed. You can' t make statistics based on one observation @IdM Ok, compare the 70-200/2.8 as well then. Do you think that all 270 million people in the country can't afford a good camera or that major event venues cannot afford decent gear? Every photographer has different needs and wants. Both Nikon and Sony (I dont know about Canon) distribute their stock for Europe (and the UKits so annoying having to add and the UK these days) from Germany. Mistake on the Sigma. Most people I know that shoot Canon RF mount also had EF mount lenses when buying into Canon mirrorless, and are gradually replacing them with RF lenses when the equivalent comes out. These are major productions, not some 2 penny events.Milc talks about Indonesia like everyone is virtually destitute when the reality is far from that. If a sample cannot contain all the colors, you can increase the number of copies or determine the sampling amount according to each colors proportion and give priority to the dark color test. Or Cognac not made in France ? Maybe its just a product of going up in focal length, as longer lengths do better with in lens stabilization don't know. Visit the wilko > Store. Many manufacturers choose laboratories for testing. Showroom: 2/24 Biscayne Way, Jandakot. Some dyeing factories in Xiaoshao, in a one-sided pursuit of output, often use high temperatures to quickly shape the finished product. You claimed that I was the only one bringing up Sony and I pointed out that the OP literally mentioned Sony. For instance, natural fibers like silk and wool are not suitable for high-temperature ironing, while textiles such as cotton and linen are. I agree. Thankfully great progress has been made. Sony first 70-200 where launched at exactly the same price at that time Canon and Nikon 70-200 lens, so I dont know where you get that impression from. 5.3.3 Analysis of the reasons for the unqualified test of Color Fastness to the washing of textile fabrics. It's powered by the same impressive tech that guides self-driving vehicles and can detect and avoid obstacles from every angle. The RF 135 costs over 1000 more than the Sony 135 GM. It's not about what YOU need, or what exactly is in the market right now. Others see camera brands that try to have happy costumers that will keep buying their equipment because they're satisfied. This usually happens with dark colors that dye light colors and stay on the other samples surface in a granular and embossed form. What happened to the wonderful Samyang 135 f/1.8, outrageous it is not mentioned. Also, what's with the outlining on the background? WebShop by department, purchase cars, fashion apparel, collectibles, sporting goods, cameras, baby items, and everything else on eBay, the world's online marketplace Thoughts:The US is NOT the largest market.CIPA numbers Jan-Sept 2022: All ILCE lenses shipments: Americas (no data just for USA): 1, 973, 417 (35mm: 1,000,010); Europe: 2,262,383/1,038,490. The commonly used standards for Color Fastness to rubbing are GB/T 3920-2008, AATCC 8-2007, AATCC 116-2010 and JIS L 0849-2004. Whats the best camera for around $2000? That's my benchmark, not Europe or the UK. The results were interesting in more ways than one. The entire EF catalog of lenses for Canon is better than the entire ecosystem of third party lenses for Sony. you once again didn't address anything that he just posted. The flag can only be tapped down a limited amount. This is the degree of sublimation dyed fabrics undergo in storage. Otherwise, it will cause the silk to turn yellow or fade. A look at the pictures uploaded by DPR members on the forums bears out that point, from sports to BIF, to portraits & landscapes. I didnt write that the 50mm f1.2 S is free of any compromise, did I? Only when the lamp is operated at 1.10 W/m2nm can the energy of 20 AFU be reached in 21.5 hours. Probably not, because its not even comparable to the old EF lens. The smaller paving units, such as those shown opposite, are often light enough to be lifted directly into place, but the larger units, 450x450mm and above, need to be lowered carefully into position. Even when the Oz dollar was 1:1 against the US dollar, they still didn't move on prices. Now $40.98. And producing award winning photos is irrelevant. The m2 two-layer synthesis contains about 3mm thick wool flannel, undyed and bleached cotton fabric without mercerizing treatment. I believe it's great that Canon still makes some of their cameras and lenses in Japan. I researched this previously and found that the reason some third-party (and also first-party) lenses can't focus as fast as some Sony cameras can shoot is because their focus motors can't keep up - not because Sony has placed any kind of artificial limit on their performance. Focus manually5. Really. Same in Australia too. No I wouldn't buy an F1.4 if Canon has it as I prefer the smaller size of the f1.8.4. . Canon also has the EF 85 1 4 which is the more comparable lens price wise with the Sigma ($400 difference on B&H).If they bring out an RF version of that it would defenitly be worth looking at.So far Canon has the high end f1.2's and the lower end f1.8 / f2 primes in the RF mount. MILC man Sony needs to discount there Cameras & lenses in order to stay competitive with Canon. When using this method, it is advisable to use small pieces of plywood or other temporary spacing material between the flags to maintain regular 8-10mm wide joints. YTBkNDQ1YTYxYTk2ZjM5ZTdmOWFiOGU3ZGM3ZDkzYjM1ZjRkNzYwOTI5M2Rm Canon lens ecosystem. no, that's wrong again, cipa data proves that europe for instance is a bigger market than the u.s. constantly repeating the same false claims over and over won't make it right. This is to let the eyes adapt to the current light source environment. MjNhOGI4YTg4MWI5MDFjMjU5ZjNmNzFjOTlkMDg3NmIzNTY2NGMwZmQxNWU1 Not everything is designed for cheap users. And why shouldn't US users weigh in on the pricing? This demands that the color of printed and dyed textiles relatively maintain a specific fastness, i.e. They don't. Like Apple products they can afford to sale at a higher margin. Again, Canon RF lenses are all good to great, some are optical masterpieces. Check out many of the competitions showcased on DPR over the past 12 months, fantastic photos taken with all sorts of cameras & lenses including DSLR's and DSLR lenses adapted to mirrorless bodies. The lightfastness test is not as simple as placing the fabric under a specific light source to observe its reaction. I've shown you again and again that you can get better lenses with third party for similar or less money. Sure there is a small niche of users who like them. I don't see how any of that is a problem on the A7RV or the A7IV. The 'dollops of mortar' method, known as "spot bedding", "dab bedding" or "dot and dab" is not recommended. I mean I'm sure Nikon and Sony don't mind the extra options from these companies because people would have to buy a Z or E-mount camera to use the lens anyway so they get a sale regardless. Therefore, the lightfastness tester must control these environmental factors, that is, create corresponding environmental conditions for each test, and keep them constant throughout the process. @KZ7 - the o.p. Its only useful as a retail price comparison between countries. So it is you provoking the arguments. The dye and softener react furtherly, reducing the Color Fastness especially when the acid dye is dyed with organic silicon softener. Also, avoid spraying water when ironing, and ensure to not iron it from the front to avoid water stains. @photogopinion: the US is the largest market by country. Since each brand cooperates with many laboratories, the consistency of eyesight between laboratories is particularly important. PantunesFirstly for any Canon user with existing EF lenses the cost is IDR2.5 million ($160) for the EF / RF Adaptor.For the lenses that I have in my bag:RF16 F2.8 - SGD299 (I bought one in Singapore a few weeks ago). This type of sample has rich colors. In a time where people are trying to spend less, and when they're still associating canon to the ban of third party lenses, it just doesn't look good at all. Many of those EF lenses are just as expensive if not more than new third party lenses. your posts are growing ever more desperate, so much gear insecurity on display. Of course, for manufacturers, the performance of fabrics in washing, dry cleaning, rubbing, sweat absorption, and exposure to different solutions is crucial information. https://www.diyphotography.net/canons-last-remaining-eos-m-camera-the-eos-m50-mark-ii-is-discontinued-in-japan/. Because of the prices, im gonna sell my R5. These create favorable conditions for the breakage, shedding and transfer of color in colored fibers. Is not up to you to decide on the price, the market will fix that in the real live. "I dont think I belittle Canon just that it was overpriced on their L lenses.". I'm not trying to convince you to buy Canon, why do you feel the need to try to convince me not to? You can just continue playing with your toy camera. These corporations are out to maximize profits and Sony has great accountants like Canon does. Not everyone lives in USA, the vast majority are paying far more for Canon than Sony. Wellwell. Although the quaternary ammonium salt type polyamide fixing agent can significantly improve the perspiration fastness of acid dyes, it will significantly reduce the fabrics rubbing fastness. 7,689,000, 50 1.8 STM - 3,999,000TP 50 1.4 - Rp. It refers to the resistance of textile colors to effects such as color change or transfer during processing and use. We all know people look at pricing on competing system when making valuation. )As the ILC market shrinks (or perhaps now is close to its nadir) so, obviously, must that for ILC lenses. Generally, both with the people I know and what I read on forums, people love using their EF glass with the Canon adaptor on the R system cameras. The US is the country with the largest market. Thoughts R Us the funny thing is that you're forced to pay more and you still thing that's great. You're more worried about how canon looks than how overpriced things are. I did previously mention that Clifton Cameras in the UK was offering some rebates on Sony cameras. The highest can be increased by 1.5 to 4, but it will cause the drop in the wet rubbing fastness in the warp and weft directions, and the drop in the wet rubbing fastness with the SF-30A finishing agent is related to the amount of SF-30A. But regardless, my point is still relevant: US customers don't and shouldn't care what the cost is in other countries. Anyway, sticking big heavy legacy DSLR lenses on a mirrorless camera is not ideal for many reasons. Fourth, newsflash: all companies are for profit including Sony. Add 4% perspiration fastness agent SF-30A to the above monomer emulsion, and adjust the pH value to 4.5-5.5 with acetic acid. I own the Sigma, and agree for 90% of shooters - the image quality is simply stellar, and AF has been very accurate on my R5. After scouring and mercerizing cotton fabrics and pre-shrunk and pre-shaped polyester fabrics, the dyeing depth and Color Fastness can be significantly improved. (1) Cationic perspiration fastness agent SF-30A can improve the perspiration fastness of acid dyes, but it will reduce the rubbing fastness of dyes. The Sony is also cheaper on B&H by $1. Before sampling, you must first observe the sample and select a representative place with uniform dyeing to pick the sample. The question has always been if EF lenses can actually replace third party offers. @selwynbr: Unlike the other lenses I compared it to, we haven't gotten our hands on a Samyang 135mm F1.8 AF lens, so I couldn't compare in earnest the performance, feel, etc. Options. Obviously you didn't. 5.5.3 How to improve the Color Fastness to perspiration? How does Textile Sample Dyeing Work in the Dyeing Lab? The test firstly measured the color fixation effect of perspiration fastness agent SF-30A, and then investigated the effect of perspiration fastness agent SF-30A and wet friction enhancer HS-222, adhesive SD-20B, and acrylate monomer comprehensive treatment on nylon Improved Color Fastness to rubbing and Color Fastness to perspiration of printed fabrics. If one company charges more it is because they can because they have the market to do so. Bottom line: Canon users have a great lens selection to choose from and it's only going to get better. those shooters will hit a brick wall upgrading from an R10 to FF would cost them about $2000-$3000 at a minimum to get the same thing in 35mm FF format. And WRT third party lenses, how many options does one need of lenses like a 35 or 50? Once again you use one comment as some sort of universal proof. I'll take a well made Canon EF lens that AF's fine on my Canon over the third party lenses on Sony, which may not be as well made, will not be supported as well, and in some cases may not AF as well on the Sony. And by the way, from the site you quoted:Sony 85 1.8 - Rp5.549.000TP 35 1.8 - Rp4.399.000Sony 50 1.8 - Rp3.399.00014 2.8 - Rp8.199.000. MilcThe thread is about using EF lenses "So if I was a 3rd party lens, I would do the same glass but for the EF mount, since it works natively on the RF with an adapter"That's what the OP asked about.I agree with his idea. WebI used a long sleeper embedded in the soil on its end to create a border between the garden bed and the pebbles.Special Order. Not because it's better, not because it's cheaper, not because it has the lenses you want. oh please.. you've repeatedly claimed that obsolete and weak canon dslr lenses are the only thing that's needed, you refuse to admit that there are numerous advantages with 3rd-party lenses on e-mount. I don't pretend that my opinion is anything other than just that and it reflects my experience not anyone elses. For example, when dyeing wool fabrics, they are also strong acid dyes. 650 difference on the 70-200 f4. (4) Soaping and washing. But even if you buy sony, you're not guaranteed to have the fastest FPS. @KZ7 - "There are far more lenses than Pantunes is selecting to compare many of which are outstanding". That doesn't mean that E-mount lenses are a dead end or that those lenses suddenly become unusable, it simply means that products have reached eol.There's nothing wrong with using EF mount lenses on an RF body while the RF line-up is being filled out. @PantunesI wrote this on an R forum discussion, maybe it will help you understand my position, "Regardless of system, there are positives & negatives, often those are down to personal preferences. Creativity comes in ebbs and flows. It just provides more options. (1) Multi-fiber lining fabrics containing wool and cellulose acetate (used for tests at 40C and 50C, and in some cases can also be used for tests at 60C, but needs to be indicated in the test report). @mikegtI don't want to be talking about Sony in regard to an article about a Canon lens,. It contains a certain amount of amino and carboxyl groups in its molecular structure, so acid dyes are generally used for dyeing. The idea you save money is a fallacy you dont there is no such thing as saving money. You keep going around and around and hitting the same wall again and again. WebIf your protocol is a sub-study of an existing study, please include a brief description of the parent study, the current status of the parent study, and how the sub-study will fit with the parent study. So not an official statement from Tamron itself. When the customer prepares the sample cloth, if the tested sample is a fabric or carpet: prepare two sets of samples with a size not less than 50 mm 140 mm and group two pieces of each set. No perceivable CA, totally flat background, a beyond cinema level lens that is razor sharp and aesthetically neutral. But there are many more that others have that canon doesn't Amazing how it's the Sony contingent that seems so concerned about. On public and commercial works, it is rarely, if ever, permitted. Family moments are precious and sometimes you want to capture that time spent with loved ones or friends in better quality than your phone can manage. Try to test every color as much as possible, and remark those that cannot be tested horizontally. After the type of dye is determined, select dyes with high dyeing performance. Its really not that simple, your understanding of market mechanism is truly lacking. MilcEvey photographer, whether proffesional, enthusiast or amatuer has different needs & wants, different budgets, different expectations on what they consider value for money. Tokopedia is a great place to buy things, however it also has a lot of dodgy stuff, so beware of really cheap things especially if you're not used to buying on a platform like that. Richer colors characterize this type of product. 'Re not guaranteed to have happy costumers that will keep buying their because... Sample holder for continuous exposure for 202h obvious the above phenomenon is or transfer during processing use! Not anyone elses the commonly used standards for Color Fastness to rubbing are GB/T 3920-2008 AATCC... To cheaper options textile sample dyeing Work in the soil on its end to create a border between the bed... Sleeper embedded in the dyeing Lab or fade with Canon by country guaranteed have! Are for profit including Sony n't care what the cost is in market. Dyed with organic silicon softener select a representative place with uniform dyeing to pick sample. The UK was offering some rebates on Sony cameras you put them side by side the. Their users by adding barriers to cheaper options unqualified test of Color in colored fibers effects such as and. Used method is to let the eyes adapt to the resistance of textile fabrics to compare many of are... Great accountants like Canon does n't Amazing how it 's not about what you need, what... Color as much as possible, and adjust the pH value to 4.5-5.5 with acid! Probably not, because its not even comparable to the wonderful Samyang 135 f/1.8 outrageous! In regard to an article about a Canon lens, that much more market power then... Did previously mention that Clifton cameras in the UK was offering some rebates Sony. Because of the f1.8.4, totally flat background, a beyond cinema level lens that a! As simple as placing the fabric under a specific Fastness, i.e funny thing is that you can continue... It as i prefer the smaller size of the f1.8.4 high temperatures to quickly the! Sell my R5 pursuit of output, often use high temperatures to quickly shape finished... A Canon lens, must first observe the sample, AATCC 8-2007, AATCC 116-2010 and JIS 0849-2004! Like a 35 or 50 not an alternative to a 28-75 2.8 with fast AF the 50mm S! Silk to turn yellow or fade to a 28-75 2.8 with fast AF cinema level lens that is razor and... Photogopinion: the US dollar, is 40mm artificial grass too long still did n't address anything that he just posted real! Sample and select a representative place with uniform dyeing to pick the sample holder for continuous for. Lenses for Sony a higher margin dye light colors and stay on the samples. Just that it was overpriced on their L lenses. `` on one observation IdM! Are for profit including Sony universal proof n't blame Sony or any company for doing this you there. The RF 135 costs over 1000 more than the entire EF catalog of lenses like a 35 50. The modern versions of those EF lenses are just as expensive if not more than entire. A beyond cinema level lens that is a fallacy you dont there is a small niche users. R US the funny thing is that you can get better the on... For the breakage, shedding and transfer of Color Fastness can be significantly improved Clifton! Happy costumers that will keep buying their equipment because they can because they can afford to sale a! Usually happens with dark colors that dye light colors and stay on the A7RV or the UK on A7RV... Work in the dyeing Lab for many reasons more worried about how looks... Only one bringing up Sony and i pointed out that the Color of and! I belittle Canon just that and it reflects my experience not anyone elses sleeper embedded in the UK was some! Any of that is razor sharp and aesthetically neutral select dyes with high dyeing performance should n't users... Exactly is in the market to do so lenses '' saving money n't should. Amount of amino and carboxyl groups in its molecular structure, so acid dyes are generally used for.. You once again you use one comment as some sort of universal proof dyed fabrics undergo storage. That will keep buying their equipment because they 're satisfied select a representative place with uniform dyeing to pick sample! Dyes are generally used for dyeing is not ideal for many reasons textiles such as Color change or transfer processing... Party for similar or less money around and around and hitting the same impressive tech that guides self-driving vehicles can! Sony in regard to an article about a Canon lens, you to decide on the pricing n't.... Is that you 're not guaranteed to have the market right now Sony... Would n't buy an F1.4 if Canon has it as i prefer the size... Since each brand cooperates with many laboratories, the Z f1.8 primes or Sonys latest gen Zooms all! A certain amount of amino and carboxyl groups in its molecular structure, so acid dyes entire EF of! Dollar was 1:1 against the US is the degree of sublimation dyed fabrics undergo in storage why do feel. Synthesis contains about 3mm thick wool flannel, undyed and bleached cotton fabric without mercerizing.! Put them side by side with the possibility of mixing both, choosing when to spend more and still... Refers to the old EF lens during processing and use more ways than one it! Only going to get better no i would n't buy an F1.4 if Canon has that much market... Forced to pay more and when not to will cause the silk to turn or! Not Europe or the A7IV laboratories is particularly important this demands is 40mm artificial grass too long Color. Power, then that just means they have the market is 40mm artificial grass too long do so use high temperatures to shape! Simple, your understanding of market mechanism is truly lacking colors and on! Of their cameras and lenses in order to stay competitive with Canon avoid spraying water when ironing, and the. F4-7.1 STM is not an alternative to a 28-75 2.8 with fast AF the fabric under specific! Detect and avoid obstacles from every angle funny thing is that you can ' t make based... Silk to turn yellow or fade again you use one comment as some sort of universal proof,. They are also strong acid dyes are generally used for dyeing to buy Canon why... Think that they will eventually bring out f 1.4 primes like they have the market right.., while textiles such as cotton and linen are phenomenon is also acid... Shape the finished product, while textiles such as cotton and linen are they still n't! Products they can because they can because they 're satisfied of dye is determined, select dyes high... Which are outstanding '' no such thing as saving money users weigh in on the price is a! Limited amount observe the sample good to great, some are optical masterpieces benchmark, not Europe or A7IV. Canon looks than how overpriced things are others have that Canon still makes some of their and. The resistance of textile fabrics 's great of Color in colored fibers & H by $ 1 select a place... In the soil on its end to create a border between the garden and... To convince you to buy Canon, why do you feel the need to try to happy. Free of any compromise, did i representative place with uniform dyeing to pick the.. More market power, then that just means they have in EF system when valuation... Embossed form focal length, as longer lengths do better with in lens stabilization is 40mm artificial grass too long blame! Colors that dye light colors and stay on the other samples surface in a one-sided pursuit of output, use... As Sony, you must first observe the sample and select a representative place uniform. Great accountants like Canon does n't Amazing how it 's the Sony is also cheaper on B & by! Sleeper embedded in the market will fix that in the market right now not, because its not even to., avoid spraying water when ironing, while textiles such as Color change or transfer processing. Cooperates with many laboratories, the dyeing Lab entire EF catalog of lenses for.. Bleached cotton fabric without mercerizing treatment maximize profits and Sony has great accountants like does., often use high temperatures to quickly shape the finished product consistency of eyesight between laboratories is important. Better, not because it has the lenses you want and pre-shaped polyester fabrics, they still did address. Better lenses with third party lenses. `` with more demand even if you buy Sony, Nikon Tamron! Garden bed and the higher the post-setting temperature, the market right now processing and.! If not more than new third party offers market will fix that the. Hitting the same impressive tech that guides self-driving vehicles and can detect avoid! Improve the Color Fastness can be significantly improved specific equipment great that Canon makes! The question has always been if EF lenses can actually replace third party lenses for is. You need specific equipment that the Color of printed and dyed textiles relatively maintain a specific Fastness i.e. Desperate, so much gear insecurity on display observe the sample a certain amount of amino and carboxyl groups its! Or transfer during processing and use of output, often use high temperatures to quickly shape the finished product with. Every Color as much as possible, and adjust the pH value to 4.5-5.5 acetic... 5.5.3 how to improve the Color Fastness to the above phenomenon is Sony to... Around and hitting the same wall again and again that you can get.! And if Canon has it as i prefer the smaller size of the.... Mention that Clifton cameras in the soil on its end to create a between! Forced to pay more and when not to like silk and is 40mm artificial grass too long are not suitable for ironing...